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Story = Danger?
It’s time.
Time for something serious.
I don’t do too many posts like this, but I hope this opens up some serious discussion in the comments, because controversy is what gets lots of comments in the blog world and I am unlikely to write something truly controversial like… suggesting that we produce a VBS based on the twilight series of books.
So we are in the middle of creating our next children’s ministry curriculum – Hillsong Kids Big: Supernatural. I have been writing scripts like a madman and one of the weeks includes the story of Jericho. I send the scripts off for a little theology inspection (as usual) to one of our lecturers in our Bible College, Duncan Corby… it comes back pretty good, a few tweaks here and there, but I haven’t yet become a heretic. Yay.
But we start a discussion about something I hadn’t really expected, here is the question:
Should we be teaching/telling our kids the ultra-violent stories found in the Old Testament?
When you get to the end of Joshua’s army walking around Jericho, the walls have fallen, they then proceed to kill every single man, woman and child in the city and burn it to the ground. This is all apparently sanctioned and encouraged by God (rinse and repeat for many other OT stories).
Now he was really thinking out loud and not endorsing the idea, but I need to (even if for my own sake) investigate this idea.
Let me present two perspectives as precisely as I can, because I don’t want this to be an essay.
YES: We should be teaching the whole counsel of God, and we can teach these stories in an age appropriate way. As children grow in understanding they can then begin to explore these issues further. We have to present the Bible as a narrative, the story of God dealing with his people over thousands of years so that our children grasp the big picture of faith. After all the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
NO: Exposing our kids to these stories has aided in creating our violent culture. Where Christians quite happily support capital punishment and can justify war in a heart beat. In much the same way that it is said that Jewish young men would not be allowed to read the Song of Songs until they were 30 years old our kids should focus on the life of Jesus, who was non-violent figure, until they are able to reconcile a jealous God in their hearts and minds.
I would love for you to post a pro/con thought in the comments, keep it short, focused and don’t try to present dozens of ideas in one go. Especially if you can point me in the direction of some resources/books that cover this thought.
Related posts:
I’ve always leaned towards age appropriateness. This came up last year when we attempted to mirror our adult services through the story of Abraham.
Abe attempting to carry out the plan that God put in front of Him and had sex with his wife’s maidservant in order to have a child.
We skipped it, but mentioned that a large mistake was made by Abe in not trusting God to carry out the plan in the perfect timing.
Anyway just my thoughts.
Thanks J.C. for your input.
I’m with J.C. I would agree on age-appropriateness. I think that teaching things which are not age-appropriate is very dangerous. This is true of both violence and things of sexual nature. The kids need to hear that God was in control of the situation and that God defeated the city of Jericho, but the exact details of annihilation may not be necessary for first graders.
Should we be shocked at the stories in the Old Testament? Does anyone have an experience where someone has rejected God because of what they found out later… that a lot of these stories end in violent slaughter?
Honestly man our kids see and hear worse on TV and at school. As far as coming from a scholastic perspective, take a look at our school books for these age ranges. When topics of war and death come up they have their own way of dancing around the gory and give the facts. We need to do our best to do the same.
Are there things that we shouldn’t teach at certain ages? sure. Kids mentally aren’t able to handle certain topics and subjects. Like with any theological subject we need 2 bring the truth to their level in a way they understand it. The basics of the gospel we break down to simple concepts.
My kids know that Hell is a place where you are forever separated from God full of pain hurt. They get that Sin is anything we do that is against what God’s laws. They understand that everyone who has sin goes to Hell. They know that the cost of sin is death and that Christ died so that we could be forgive of our sins.
I didn’t use theological words like propitiation of sin and penal substitution. I used language they understood and gave them the essential information they needed.
in the above case you don’t have to explain to the kids that God told His people to completely destroy every man woman and child. all you need to do is say “God told his people to get rid of all the people in the city so that they wouldn’t turn His people away from Him and cause his people to stumble down the road.” you could even work in an illustration of pouring coke into a cup, dump it out. There’s still some left in the cup but not much. Then put some sprite in it. It’s still mostly sprite but the little bit of coke has changed the color of it. It’s even changed the taste of it.
As far as your second question, i do know of a few people who while they did not turn away from God because they weren’t taught everything about scripture, they do use it as an excuse to stay away from him. They make claims that the church hides the truth about how violent God is just to lure them into a false sense of safety.
Oh, I see. Not just sparing the littlies the gory details of throats slashed and kiddies stabbed and homes burned … but we should also teach them an untruth … that God is not the sort of person who would order a genocide (by omitting it from what is an otherwise comprehensive description of His acts).
Do you think we should wait until they are older before we tell the kids what God is really like. May I suggest that *you* are not comfortable with what God is really like, and you are not sure if some of His decisions really are defensible? Maybe you can rationalize a ‘good’ in these stories but don’t really feel it. Or maybe you are embarrassed because the Godless would condemn His actions?
At least we won’t have to censor the word of God for those kids who live in war torn third world countries. They have seen death by violence and hunger and disease … so they can hear the whole word of God and with it receive a theology that is more accurate than ‘nice’. They weren’t expecting ‘nice’.
But by all means teach our children about a God who is not like what the whole Old Testament describes. We wouldn’t want them to fear Him.
It’s no wonder that each generation invents a dualism of “gentle Jesus” vs “Angry Yaweh”. If they serve a god who did not order the slaughter of Canaanites, are they serving the God of the bible?
We are not teaching our kids half truths when we leave out certain gory aspects of the biblical account.
fact of the matter is that mentally children are not able to understand and comprehend these types of things. We have to take into account a child’s developmental stage when we teach them.
When you find out that there is an arm inside Elmo your world is turned upside down. When you find out that Santa isn’t real your world gets turned upside down. You always knew that your parents made you, but when you find out HOW they made you, your world is turned upside down.
In teaching kids we break concepts down to the really foundational stuff, put it in language that they can grasp, then build on that. We want what they are learning to be meaningful for their lives now and to develop a curiosity around the subject.
As they go on, they will have times where they grapple with what appears to be contradictions. But if we are preparing them with a good grasp on the character of God as their foundation, if anything the process of grappling will deepen their faith.
I personally don’t think we need to teach the dodgy bits in stories for kids to have a well rounded understanding of the character of God. We can see the fullness of who God is in Jesus – we see both a loving God and a just God.
This is interesting to me as we are teaching about Esau and Jacob in Sunday School right now. It is difficult to explain how Jacob had two wives and why this was permissible in OT times. Sometimes (in response to Na Yeo) I think we as adults do not understand the actions of God and therefore we are afraid we will not be able to answer the questions of the children. I (as an adult) do not understand why God would kill entire families because of the sin of the father, but I accept it as God’s word and His holiness and His righteousness.
I am reminded of Corrie ten Boom in the Hiding Place writing about asking her father about “sex sin”. He did not answer her, but instead asked her to carry his heavy case off the train. She could not do it for she was too small. He then picked up the case for her and told her that he would carry it because she was too small right now. Then he said, that is how it is with “sex sin” Corrie. You are too young to understand right now. When you are ready, I will tell you. This is a paraphrase, of course, but I think we must use wisdom and not give children more than they can carry.
Great question/discussion. I am a chicken when it comes to the OT sex stories. I don’t like getting ahead of parents. However, I think it’s a mistake to exclude the violence from the Bible. I try to err of the side of telling the truth. You don’t have to paint a graphic picture of OT violence but kids need to know God is not a cosmic teddy bear. He deals with us as family not because He is wishy washy about sin but because Jesus paid the price for our sin. Without Jesus we would all be facing a gory conclusion.
Thanks for this Roger. I appreciate you stopping by!
The consensus here seems to be to teach age appropriately.
I read this book recently, recommended by a friend in the army:
On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316040932/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1285059787&sr=8-1
It suggests that we have lost contact with the land and our food. If you are a farmer you and your family have to deal with death a lot of the time. But those of us who are removed from the land do not have that connection with our food.
We do not have a respect for death that comes from having to kill your own food.
My laptop battery is almost dead… but I think that farmers and people who deal with death on an everyday basis have a far different perspective that some of us city folk.
I have a sneaky suspicion that Joseph sat down with his boys (Jesus included) and began to tell some great “old testament prophet” stories… and Mary probably walked into the room right at the “and they slaughtered them all …down to the last man” stage of the story and she gave him a concerned look and said something to the extent of “are all the gory details REALLY necessary?
I imagine this has been an issue for hundreds of years… and will be for a while longer. Use your best judgment and realize you’re probably going to make someone mad regardless of what “version” of the story you’re going to tell. Either way, it’s our job to show God for who He really is – HOLY.
Here’s my two cents. I think this is a much easier call as a parent than as a children’s minister.
We should know our kids and know what they are capable of grasping and understanding. That said, we have to be extremely cautious not to underestimate their capability. Secondly, I think we need to check our motive. Are we avoiding things because we truly think they are not age appropriate or because they make us uncomfortable? It’s easy to decide something is not age appropriate just so we don’t have to deal with it.
I think their has been an alarming “Jesus is your best friend” type mentality in children’s ministry that emphasizes that aspect of our relationship with God and ignores the fear and reverence side. I personally think that is very dangerous. What will happen to the child who is only ever told that God is his buddy and wants the best for him when a sibling dies, or parents get divorced, or the doctor tells them they have an incurable disease? We can’t let our discomfort with God’s actions stand in the way of kids getting the full counsel of God. Did the walls of Jericho fall down? Yep, that’s the fun part of the story to teach, but when we ignore the rest of the story, aren’t we teaching them a watered down God?
In the same way that I think it is unhealthy for kids to be deluded into thinking that their parents are perfect, I think they have to have some concept of the wrath of God to appreciate their need for a Savior. We don’t hesitate to tell them that Jesus died on a cross for their sins. Doesn’t that seem a bit harsh if we leave out all the other stories of God’s judgment?
So, I come down here. I don’t think we can should ignore parts of the Old Testament (or new) just because they meet our idea of acceptable. That said, there is often more than one way to get a point across, and the extent of the description is up to you. In other words, I don’t want to give the kids the idea that the Israelites went in and had tea with the citizens of Jericho, on the other hand I don’t have to describe the gory details of how each citizen was killed.
I’m rambling now, but a couple of more things. Take the story of Noah’s Ark for example. In so many story books, the story is reduced to Noah had a petting zoo on a big boat, and the whole reason for the story, and consequences of the flood, are totally ignored. For those who would say kids are capable of processing this, my son (now nine) asked me what happened to everyone not on the boat when he was three. When we teach kids the “God provides a way” lesson without even touching on the judgment of God, I just think it waters down the whole lesson.
Even with kids, maybe especially with kids, we need to remember that focusing too much on God’s love without talking about his justice leads to licentiousness. Focusing too much on his justice without talking about his love leads to legalism. The answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Final thought – we give our kids Bibles and encourage them to read them (at least I hope we do). If we are willing to let them read it, we have to be willing to talk about it.
Thanks for letting me share my stream (perhaps more of a trickle) of consciousness.
Along the same lines of appropriatness, I was once challenged on the way I taught “Love and Obedience to Parents”, it’s totally biblcal to teach obedience to parents, but do we need to qualify this as well for children who live in homes with abuse???
When I was a child I would have felt misled not knowing all the details. I remember a teacher sharing a Bible fact that I felt was incorrect (due to hearing the same story during family devotions) and searching the scripture to make sure whether my thinking was right or wrong. That became a habit and caused me to be exposed to the harsh reality of some parts of scripture. Fortunately my parents were willing to look at those issues with me and try to help me understand them. I received Christ as my savior after a discussion about the death penalty with my mom when I was 5 years old! (I know, kind of wierd…) Once a child can read he/she will be exposed to information that can be hard to handle. Those who minister to children need to be ready to support parents in the process. And yes, that is complicated!
Phil Vischer in his new series “What’s in the Bible” has a segment where he talks directly to children (sans puppets) about the “tricky bits” of scripture. In volume 4 which was just released he deals with violence in scripture. I haven’t seen it yet but I am interested to hear his explanation!! He did and awesome job on discussing holiness with kids!
What an interesting topic. Loved reading the post and the comments.
This is an another excellent reason to have a plan for what you will teach kids from Preschool to High School. You don’t have to feel so worried when you don’t completely unpack David and Bathsheba in early elementary school when you know you will be talking about it often in Middle School! But you have to have confidence in your plan.
I think it’s also another great reason to teach kids for application and not just information. When you’re teaching the Battle of Jericho – what is the bottom line you are trying to help kids understand? Are you trying to cover a body of material or help a child learn a key truth? Every great communicator of God’s word sifts through all of the information and makes choices on what is helpful and what is most important for their audience to know in that moment. This doesn’t mean the rest of the information isn’t important. If you try to teach EVERYTHING there is a very good chance that very little will stick.
Creating content for kids is such an important responsibility. Love to hear such passion and conviction from those who write for our kids and lead our kids.
Kendra
Life is messy. Full of bumps and bruises. Full of tears. Full of bad stuff. That is the point of our DESPERATION for a deliverer. My children are not desperate for their next meal. They are not desperate for a warm coat. They are not desperate for love and affection. How will they learn how desperate their spirits are?
I think our society has made us squeamish. We live in a sanitized and safety-obsessed culture. Purchase kneepads for your little crawler so his poor little knees won’t get sore learning an essential skill. Bubble-wrap every sharp corner of your home to prevent injury. And through avoidance, keep conversation as safe and shallow as you wish.
Or accept the reality that this life is not meant to be heaven. To insulate our children from all pain, to sugarcoat all ugliness, to deceive them in any way is to do them a massive disservice.
I’m not saying you read Foxe’s Book of Martyrs as a bedtime story. I’m not saying you read the story of Jericho as a bedtime story. But when you do teach the story of Jericho and they ask you, as they will, “What happened to all the people?” The truth—the messy, painful truth—should be given. No you don’t go gory with your kindergartner. But you don’t shy away from the truth that God is a righteous, holy Judge.
State the truth without apology. If you, as parent or teacher, are not comfortable with God’s rightness in annihilating whole people groups, then you’ll need to come to grips with that yourself. Maybe your Sunday School teacher also sing-songed around the dreadful and fearful condition of being an enemy of the Almighty.
Lastly, be honest enough to admit that there are things about God that confuse you. It doesn’t hurt for kids to learn that scripture is difficult, mysterious, awe-inspiring, and challenging for adults too.
Rett, thanks for posting this!
So….the conversation you started continues in the UK. One of Emerging Kids’ followers sent the seeds of this discussion off to this person. Enjoy!! [I probably didn’t do this link the right way for the comment but the site is http://bishoppaulbutler.wordpress.com/
Margie, thanks for this link! Wow, really cool to see what has happened to the conversation!
Dave
I found this interesting article from George Barna that has some bearing on this conversation:
http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/11/must-truth-be-tempered/
Dave